He promised, but when we got there and got my drink, I knew it didnt taste right. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. . Youre making blanket statements that arent helpful when there are too many variables. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. had to drop out of high school athletics in order to help his family . RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? I think God understands this. and me on Friday evening: Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. . If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! Remember Ashley Madison? Marriage & Divorce. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. Letting him remain in the church passing himself off as a Christian does not help him hit bottom. I am in Silicon Valley, as you know, so I know all of the groups and organizations that you have mentioned. We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. Barbara Roberts made a nasty comment to H.U.G. In my recent bout with serious pain from psoriatic arthritis, I found that 4 oz. For example, when my daughter was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor, I struggled and eventually went on a psychotropic drug for about 6-8 months that helped me considerable. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help.. Im not incorrect. I wonder if the people who are advocating for alcoholics to be removed from a church mean only specifically a person who also works in a leadership position, such as pastor? At the party afterwards I got to talk with him and the reasons I gave above are largely why hes returning to the Faith. I will say this if this was just a pew sitter he would have been gone years ago tossed on the trash heap. The only thing that's likely to prevent it is more public exposure. your anger is showing, yes. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. If it was unwise youll have to help me see it. Velour, much as I love you & welcome your comments here can you let this go please? No its not. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. For those who care about womens issues it was an all female surgical team. hbbd``b`?$E Just wanted to say, this echoes the thoughts that have been running through my mind after reading the article. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! @Velour, now Im getting your Dark Ages polemic. Funeral Home Services for Robert are being provided by . It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. Heres my list again to you of the issues, and I have already covered what you have raised in my list in Point #2: That R.C. and The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. There is so much more to Scripture than just Matthew 18:15-17 when it comes to dealing with people with problems. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. I could be paving the path to hell for them. It was far more than a couple drinks a day. Then it is up to the people who see this going on to stop it. But there is very good help for many problems that has helped and changed peoples lives. I have read every single post youve made in this thread so far. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. doesnt say it nearly strongly enough. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. If they carry their lunch is there a bit of the recipe in their thermos? Please stop advocating for his children? Why do you feel the need to assume things about people without asking? Many non Christians came and eventually came to The Lord. Like calories. In that hearing RC Sproul Jr plead guilty to one of four criminal charges against him: 9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. I also am of the opinion that alcohol does not change who a personal fundamentally is. H.A. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? She and R.C. . Sproul: Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. Hurting people are not the only ones who hurt people. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Barbara Roberts, to the best of my understanding, has no education about addiction treatment, its prevalence in the church, and the multi-pronged approaches that should be taken in getting people help. And the policy among some here to kick them out and to the curb is indeed a Dark Ages policy and shows a complete lack of education on the subject. Christiane wrote: We have gone several rounds. I've enclosed a letter from Lael Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I've been in contact with. Yet while Scripture condemns drunkenness, it nowhere says that consuming strong drink is in itself evil. RC Jr has routinely practiced excomminicating and shunning. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329719. But see, if I ask you to clarify your position or even answer, you will accuse me of being Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. Thank-You Love! This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. Sounds like RC Sr. also needs treatment as do the non-drinkers in the family. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. Ive read all your comments to this point, yes, and Im still mystified why you are so upset with other peoples comments. I think Jr. is in serious trouble. His family had left him and he died of runaway of pneumonia. Or perhaps it is a reaction against that teaching. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. 4. Shouldnt they be in some kind of program with medical doctors or psychiatrists and psychologists? That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. the accusations surrounding JR and his church. (I figured that if you had a DSM book that you were in mental health in some capacity, and Ive read your other comments on other threads.). So I am left with confusion. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. Spinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr, the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, the church governing body was aware of this issue. 3. Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. Im not sure what the Christology OR the Trinitarian doctrines are of the Ligonier group, The Bible shows us how, and helps us to do that. It was pouring rain outside, but I gave the drink back to him and told him to take me home. According to Spinderella, Sproulhas allegedly been drunkdriving with his kids for years. Thank you for sharing. Interesting points. From what Im seeing on this thread, RC Jr. is Mark Driscoll, but only with more beer added. Staying in it helps no-one, including himself. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. Someone else posted about Stephen King. I hope they do. No one knows. I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. Somehow, he recovered, fathered a son, but soon was drinking again. Welcome to TWW! it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. I think they have missed the entire point of Rom. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Velour, Im very sorry I hurt you. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Thats awful. Remember too, that in a church that is functioning well, there are plenty of people that have sin issues that are sincerely repentant and asking for help, and we should be giving them loving care and it may involve counseling and financial resources. In Matthew 18, Christ Jesus Himself taught on dealing with believers who are living lives of outright disobedience. This!! But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. Let me ask you a question, instead, Daisy. And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. Sorry I cant help you, friend. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. It didnt help me with depression or anxiety (thats the truth), and I did try attending a few different churches at low points in my life. Barbara wrote a pretty nasty response to me and H.U.G. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. Even finds reasons for crying out loud. People need to wake up. R.C. This is not all that safe sometimes. Im just saying that it was handled with some thought and care at that church, and not at all taken lightly. My experience with my brother had no religious component. . Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. That is exactly what RC Jr. and like-minded men are running, and many are running their cults under the protective coloration of a mainline denomination, such as the PCA or the SBC. The best place for him to go for his probation is an in-patient treatment facility for alcoholism (and whatever else his problems are that his intake uncovers). For Sproul Jr. to only get probation and no prison term must have been the result of having a good lawyer. Its a sad world sometimes. We know each others positions. During that time, I would have a half glass of wine each evening which dulled the discomfort. Velour wrote: RC2 has not been a humble, exemplary church leader. Im just looking at his outward responses to not only his alcoholism, but his Ashley Madison scandal, and dont see it as a possibility for him right now. I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. An 501(c)3 pastoral position of public trust has been verified? 13. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. However, you did make a good point, and Im glad you did: Sproul Jr. did indeed engage in that sin and irresponsibility before those tragedies occurred his life which bolsters my original statement. That is not repentance, no. There is no gradual progression or build-up. When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. I was never banned from her blog- you may have misunderstood my post on that at my blog. They and their families are all the better for it. Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. She needed that love. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. Thank you for explaining your editorial views about the word codependent. OK. How would you have liked me to word this to you? Hope makes not ashamed. Velour, we get your point (how could we fail to see it when youve made it so many times?). Drunkenness is also condemned. I replied because thats the right thing to do, not because its all about [me].. Nice story about your father, Brian. Why would they have to go to a church, all so a pastor could do that same Googling to give them the names and addresses? This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. I don't think barbara was making a medical argument, though. But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. I dont know whether theres a formal definition, or even consensus, on what makes an alcoholic. So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. I dont consider that offensive. Velour wrote: Enter a grandparent's name. (Expire a life, or innocence or a reputation, or a familys resources, etc.) I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. I know this. And regarding 1 Corinthians 5, Ps Sam Powell has preached two very good sermons about it. Why? But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. The household finances are frequently a wreck too. After reading the entire cited paragraph, RC limits his comments to drinking alcohol and sidesteps ABUSE of alcohol by others. I dont think barbara was making a medical argument, though. (P.S. 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