This service is provided on News Group Newspapers' Limited's Standard Terms and Conditions in accordance with our Privacy & Cookie Policy. Grinning and bearing it? It was the last known photo of Abby before she was killed. In the footage, the man tells the two girls: Guys, down the hill.. Everything we know about the Delphi murders and arrest of Richard Allen. A vehicle matching the description of one belonging to Mr Allen at the time of the killings was also spotted by several witnesses parked close to the trail, the documents state. During the walk, Libby posted a photo of her best friend walking along the Monon High Bridge. Donations can be mailed to: All suspects are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Later that day, the teenagers were reported missing when they failed to return to a spot where a family member was picking them up. Like us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/TheSunUS and follow us from our main Twitter account at @TheSunUS Topics Crime Features He allegedly told authorities he would find the underage girls on Instagram and then move the conversation to Snapchat. Kline, of Peru, Ind., is currently behind bars in Miami County, charged in August 2020 with 30 counts that included child exploitation, possession of child pornography and obstruction of justice, WXIN reports. I think in the beginning she wasnt public and was just posting pics for her friends. 1pm: Liberty and Abigail are dropped off nearMonon High Bridge in Delphi to go hiking on a day off school. The document read that Logans voice is not inconsistent with that of the person in the video.. Later that day, the teenagers were reported missing when they failed to return to a spot where a family member was picking them up. Mr Allen appears to have no prior criminal record. *Going Inside an Ice Cavehttps://youtu.be/FHo1aXnMjdwHidden Underground Beach!https://youtu.be/sctH1_vsQuIAbandoned LA ZOO https://youtu.be/jgepM4f9HI4 Border wall at an Abandoned Beach https://youtu.be/VtmKJw7J6lo#mobileinstinct #delphi How did Vladimir Putin lose half of Russia's elite paratroopers? My guess is that she was either inebriated and doesn't want to state that publicly or after LE was finished with her, they made it clear she is not to speak about certain facts in the case regarding what she saw that day publicly. Sign up for PEOPLE's free True Crime newsletter for breaking crime news, ongoing trial coverage and details of intriguing unsolved cases. The case itself was the 1988 murder of April Tinsley, which played out back in 1988 - more than three decades prior. Anyone with information regarding the new information released by law enforcement officials should contact the Indiana State Police at [email protected] or call 765-822-3535. DELPHI, Ind. The incident happened just 20 miles from where Abigail Williams, 13, and her friend Liberty German, 14, were found dead after going for a walk along the deserted Delphi Historic Trails in February 2017. The document read that Logans voice is not inconsistent with that of the person in the video.. Where do we go from here? The killer in the unsolved Delphi murders is believed to have moved and staged the victims bodies and taken a souvenir from their 2017 slayings, police documents revealed in May. A photo of a heavyset suspect in a blue jacket was released to the public along with an audio clip of a mans voice saying, Down the hill.. Oscar Cainer tells all. The original judge sealed it but set an 11/22/22 hearing about unsealing it/keeping it sealed. James Chadwell II, 42, (right) suffered minor injuries in his prison fight with Quentin Jackson Jr (left) on May 4, just about an hour after Jackson was booked in prison for allegedly having nude photos of his underage girlfriend on his phone, The fight occurred at theTippecanoe County Sheriff's Office and Jail in Indiana, where Chadwell is being held on kidnapping and assault charges, Chadwell, pictured before his arrest, is still being looked at in connection with the 2017 Delphi Bridge murders, although he has not been named a suspect. Investigators believe the girls were approached by an unknown man while they were walking along a disused railway bridge on the scenic route. Very plausible as far as withholding COD, in my opinion. Following An Indiana man accused of kidnapping and sexually assaulting a 9-year-old girl is being looked into for a possible connection to the unsolved murders of two teenagers in the city of Delphi in 2017 . Richard Allen is escorted into court on 22 November for a hearing about the release of the affidavit, Further, that the victims were forced down the hill by Richard Allen and led to the location where they were murdered.. Evansdale and Delphi both have minor girls abducted, in daylight hours, in both cases, the victims were later found, all 4 victims were murdered, and were found along a creek in the woods. Libbys sister Kelsi German posted online that today is the day as it emerged that a man had been arrested in connection to the murders. A text message from his phone at 7:56pm on that day indicated that his phone was likely outside of his residence and in the proximity of the murder scene. DELPHI New chilling details have emerged involving the Delphi deaths investigation. Imagine how angry a rapist, stalker or someone trying to get her might feel when two young girls get right . Days later, her body was discovered . The suspect's name was on the executioner's Snapchat account, and he was a member of the group. We now know who the FBI was looking into at first as a potential . The teenagers were never seen alive again by witnesses on the bridge and no other outgoing communications were found on Libbys phone after that time. Hundreds of people, including police, firefighters, family, friends and residents of the surrounding. Investigators had long been searching for the man known as bridge guy seen in a grainy video dressed in blue jeans, a blue jacket and a cap walking along the abandoned railroad bridge. Although the Delphi murders remained unsolved for over 3 years, the Indiana State Police department have not called their investigation a cold case. The 50-year-old married man arrested on Friday in connection with the 2017 Delphi murders has now been pictured for the first time. He allegedly hit the girl he invited into his home multiple times in the head and strangled her, according to court documents. The amount of A search warrant was ordered for Ron Logan, who owned the property where the girls bodies were found. His arrest comes more than five years after Libby, 14, and Abby, 13, were brutally murdered after setting off on a hike along the Monon High Bridge Trail in Delphi on 13 February 2017. Crime scene investigators also recovered unknown fibers and unidentified hairs. Logan ultimately died in January, having never been named a suspect or faced charges in connection to the teens murders. Last month, the CVS worker and married father to a daughter was arrested and charged with their murders. He also noted that it appeared to him as if Libby . The creator of the fictitious profile used this information while communicating with juvenile females to solicit nude images, obtain their addresses, and attempt to meet them.. I sit here wondering - now what. The man police suspect murdered Libby German, 14, and Abby Williams, 13, was filmed by Libby on her phone (above). Both the 50-year-old local man and his wife Kathy allegedly confirmed that he was the only person with access to the firearm. He has since been moved to a state facility for his own safety. . She has some credibility because she said it at the time. input, Missing Children/Missing Endangered Adults, Unarmed Response to Active Shooter Events, Frequently Asked Questions Regarding School Safety, Find information about Indiana's firearm laws, Find the number for the State Police post in my district, Find out about current road conditions in Indiana, Request New Investigation of Uncharged Death, Capitol Police Section Officer Application, Report Checks should be made payable to the Indiana State Police Alliance Foundation. The man was dressed in blue jeans and a blue jacket. Cheyenne estimates that it took her about fifteen minutes to get to the bridge. 'He's a monster,' he said of his brother. I guess I am kind of at a loss. EXCLUSIVE: 'He's always been out to hurt people.' Want to keep up with the latest crime coverage? Richard Matthew Allen, from Delphi, Indiana, was taken into custody at around midnight on Friday and booked into Carroll County Jail. DelphiTrail Author: David MacAnally Published: 9:37 PM EST February 21, 2017 Updated: 3:19 AM EST February 25, 2017 All rights reserved. Since then, several local men have fallen under suspicion for their murders. DELPHI, Ind. DELPHI, Ind. Almost three years later, it's a mystery that still haunts the small town . A bunch of other stuff happens and delays things . Could these all be true? As CrimeOnline previously reported, 13-year-old Abby and The best friends were supposed to be picked up from the trails by family later that afternoon, but they never showed up to the pickup location. Kline allegedly said he believes he received about 100 sexual pictures from about 15 underage girls, WISH reports. Police Seek New Information About Social Media Account Named in Delphi Murder Investigation, Interview Transcripts from Delphi Murder Case Reveal Man Admitted to Communicating with Libby German, Delphi Murders: 5 Years Later, Victim's Sister Clinging to Hope That Killer Will Be Caught, Cold Cases Heat Up: How Advances in DNA Technology Are Helping to Bring Justice for Victims, Suspect Arrested in 2017 Delphi Killings of Indiana Teens Liberty German and Abigail Williams, Mom of Slain Delphi Teen 'in Shock' that Suspect Was 'Living Right Under Everyone's Noses', Accused Delphi Killer Once Helped Victim's Family with Photos at CVS, and Didn't Charge Them: Grandmother, Accused Delphi Killer 'Is Not the Only Actor Involved in This,' Says Prosecutor, Texas Man Accused of Murdering Girlfriend Who Planned to Confront Him About Being Married, Texas Man Allegedly Broke into Estranged Wife's Home Wearing a Ski Mask, Killed Her While Daughter Escaped, Ga. Woman Was Killed Inside Car Dealership, Suspect Is Business Partner She Used to Date, Utah Man Who Killed Wife, 5 Kids Was Previously Accused of Choking Daughter, Who Feared He'd 'Kill Her', Inside Idaho Murder Suspect's Alleged Chat Room Posts: I Can Do 'Whatever I Want with Little Remorse', Mich. For five years, the murders of 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German have hung over Delphi, ghosts that couldn't be put to rest. According to the warrant, Logan is also in possession of multiple weapons, including handguns and knives. Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, is allegedly the man behind a fake social media account that investigators. According to the Indiana Criminal Investigation Manual, there are two types of witnesses, one is: o Until being questioned by law enforcement and their memory is jogged., This intensive inquiry of a neighborhood canvassing must be conducted as soon as possible in order to obtain information while it may still be fresh in a witnesss recollection.. I see your messages, replies, posts, etc. "Abby" Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn "Libby" German, 14, both from Delphi. Kline has allegedly admitted to using the fake social media accounts to talk to girls in 2016 and 2017 even if they told him they were under the age of 16 according to a probable cause affidavit out of Miami County obtained by WTHR. When I will go into CVS as a customer myself, he would say do you need any help? I would be like no, said Chandler Underhill, the manager of the local Brick & Mortar Pub, where he said Mr Allen was a regular. In 2020, he was arrested and charged with 30 child sexual abuse and child exploitation felonies over the @anthony_shots account. The 50-year-old married man arrested on Friday in connection with the 2017 Delphi murders has now been pictured for the first time more than five years on from the double slaying of teenage best friends Libby German and Abby Williams. The news conference will take place at 10am on Monday at the Delphi United Methodist Church. Then, around two hours after Libby and Abby were last seen alive, a woman driving past the area said she saw a muddy and bloody man dressed in a blue jacket and blue jeans walking away from the Monon High Bridge, the affidavit says. OR are one or two of these statements completely false? Investigators alleged that Logans physical build appeared to be similar to that of the man seen in the video. A suspected pedophile linked to the unsolved Delphi Bridge murders of two young girls has been beaten up in jail after allegedly molesting a nine year-old girl. Abigail and Liberty went missing on Feb. 13, 2017, after they were dropped off by their family to go for a hike on a local trail. One woman claimed she was frightened of him. When officers were searching the neighborhood for the missing girl, Chadwell allegedly told them the girl had entered his home earlier but had left, the documents state. 'Delphi Murders; Cheyenne is the Bridge Guy.' The account has closed by now, but you can still see the description in a Google search. He is married and works as a pharmacy technician, receiving his most recent pharmaceutical licence in February 2018 one year on from the murders. Four years after the still-unsolved murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, a new name has surfaced in connection with the February 2017 slayings. Sleeping for less than six hours a night could increase your risk of getting infections by more than a quarter, study suggests, Can you solve this trivia riddle? They have yet to declare him an official suspect. April 28, 2021:Carroll County Sheriff's Office confirms it is 'looking into' Chadwell in relation to Libby and Abby's murders. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, This is a community where we can speak openly about the Murders of Libby and Abby in Delphi, IN, Press J to jump to the feed. Their bodies were discovered in a secluded wooded area off the main trail the next day. Settings, Start voice ', Anyone with information on the Delphi case is asked to contact [email protected]. View our online Press Pack. A search of Mr Allens home in October uncovered jackets, boots, knives and firearms and the suspects wife told police that her husband kept guns and knives at their home, the document states. Once inside, prosecutors said, Chadwell allegedly took her into his basement where he attacked, strangled and sexually assaulted her before she was rescued by police. Photos taken by one of the witnesses placed them on the Monon High Bridge at 12.43pm and show that they passed Freedom Bridge by 1.26pm. On July 23, 2019 a suspect who had been wanted for the kidnapping and rape in Tippecanoe County was named as one of multiple suspects being investigated for the Williams and German murders, according to Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. an extensive search, at approximately 12:15 p.m. on February 14, 2017, the bodies of the two girls were found in a wooded area near the Delphi Historic Trail, approximately one-half mile upstream from the bridge. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. The word for the weapon was redacted in the document. Copyright 2022 The Associated Press. THE suspected killer in the Delphi murders made a shocking admission years ago that was forgotten by cops until now, police have revealed. Start your Independent Premium subscription today. The Delphi Murders were committed by a coward a small man who can only feel big when he instills fear in . Grandmother of Delphi murder victim speaks out after arrest of Richard Allen. I will respond tomorrow, Kelsi German (@libertyg_sister) October 30, 2022. Logans home, outbuildings and vehicles will be searched by the ages for anything in connection to the girls murders, including forensic evidence, hair, bodily fluids and weapons. I got the impression that the people saying it was fabricated were implying that the screenshot was fabricated, not that Cheyenne herself lied. On 25 February 2017 - less than two weeks after the two girls were brutally killed police carried out a search of Klines home in Peru. We are no longer accepting comments on this article. Kline has neither been charged nor been named a suspect in the murders of Abigail and Liberty. Their causeof death has never been released by authorities, but chilling images and audio of their final moments have turned the case into one of America's most infamous unsolved crimes. She wasnt complaining about the Police at all, she stated how it happened. To inquire about a licence to reproduce material, visit our Syndication site. Electronic devices and storage media were also sought after by the FBI, according to the warrant obtained by FOX59. The comments below have been moderated in advance. Read Nathan Places report from last year. The warrant revealed that the girls had lost a lot of blood during their deaths and that their killer is believed to have moved and staged their bodies, before taking some sort of souvenir from the scene. 679215 Registered office: 1 London Bridge Street, London, SE1 9GF. - Families and friends are saying goodbye to the Delphi girls who were killed while hiking in Carroll County last week. Mr Allen bears some likeness to the drawing. Following a court hearing last week, a judge on Tuesday ordered a partially-redacted version to be released to the public. The shocking new details about the murders that have rocked the community of Delphi, Indiana, for more than five years came to light in a search warrant obtained by podcast The Murder Sheet and shared with The Independent. Other details were provided by the warrant that wasnt originally revealed to the public. The case was never solved, but detectives said they are continuing to look into Chadwell. Kline has never been charged in connection to the murders. Officials release audio taking from Liberty's phone of man saying: 'Down the hill'. At the time, he denied any involvement in the murders and insisted he had never seen the two girls that day. Do you have a story for The US Sun team? One reason this particular homicide case came to national attention is the haunting cell phone and social-media clues the girls left behind. Reward for Delphi killer's capture climbs to $325K: 'Praying 2021 is the year': Sister of Delphi murder victim King Charles hosts von der Leyen at Windsor Castle, AFA president gives passionate rant speaking about student debt, Gabor Mat: No Jewish state without oppressing local population, Amplified jet stream could lead to 'disruptive snow in places', Dashcam captures moment two cars collide on a roundabout, Putin orders intelligence service to find 'scum' who oppose him, Isabel Oakeshott receives 'menacing' message from Matt Hancock, Child reads from sexually explicit book at Maine school board meeting, Woman appears to fake injury while arguing with tradie next door. There are people who make it seem like it is, but to me it isn't. Logans home, outbuildings and vehicles will be searched by the ages for anything in connection to the girls murders, including forensic evidence, hair, bodily fluids and weapons. So what exactly is Cheyennes motive for lying? Just like a normal guy that Ive seen for the last couple years, not really thinking anything.. The department has received over 40,000 tips, all have been vetted and follow-upped on. DELPHI, Ind. The video was taken just 24 minutes after the victims had been dropped off by a family member at the start of the trail. According to the search warrant, a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. Because of this, investigators believe the killer would have gotten blood on their hands or clothing. The girls were supposed to be picked up by a family member, but when they didnt show up, a search was set off. Authorities have never released details on how the girls were murdered. The property owner Ron Logan was also previously tied to the case. Delphi Murders Update April 13, 2021: Stunning Rumors about the Murders and Related Matters Now Officially Proven! Until now, no arrests have ever been made and no one has ever been charged. Court documents released by a true-crime podcast shed more light on the investigation of the unsolved 2017 murders to two teen girls in Delphi, Indiana. A 2017 police sketch of the man police believed approached the two teenage girls as they were walking on the trail and told them to 'Go down the hill', Authorities released grainy photos of the suspect, seen wearing a blue jacket and blue jeans. Officers then found the girl 'visibly distraught and crying, with her clothing on the floor beside her' in Chadwell's basement, which was locked with a chain lock, the documents state. It is also believed the murderer took a souvenir from the crime scene, according to the warrant. Three juveniles told police that they were walking on the trail that afternoon and as they headed to go home in the direction of Freedom Bridge they passed a a kind of creepy man wearing blue jeans, a blue jacket and something covering his mouth. Either way for BG to have killed those girls within such a close proximity and timeframe to Cheyenne and FSG, its not realistic. It is a path we will gladly face as we know each step taken is one step closer to our monster being convicted. One woman claimed she was frightened of him. Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams were best friends who went everywhere together. The video also broke down the cause of death rumors. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that was where the blame was-- on the source of the screenshots. While investigating the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, detectives with the Carroll County Sheriffs Office and the Indiana State Police have uncovered an online profile named anthony_shots, Indiana State Police had said in a 2021 statement. That man has never been identified, with Delphi Police remaining tight-lipped on how the girls died. Detective [redacted], along with other investigators, believe the evidence gathered shows that Richard Allen is the male subject seen on the video from Victim 2s phone who forced the victims down the hill, the affidavit states. He said he lied because Logan told him to, adding that Logan had never asked [him] to lie in the past.. Nine-year-old missing girl is found alive in the basement of James Brian Chadwell II, 42, in Lafayette, Indiana. Earlier this month, prosecutors dropped some charges against the man behind the catfishing account which was in contact with Libby on the day of the murders and a judge agreed to push back his trial, with court records showing he had been negotiating with the state. The teens bodies were found the next day. He said he lied because Logan told him to, adding that Logan had never asked [him] to lie in the past.. I certainly wouldn't have. They were to be picked up later in the afternoon, but did not show up there at the previously arranged time. Accessibility You can change your choices at any time by visiting your privacy controls. The video ends with the victims following the mans instructions and heading down the hill. I just always hoped on a personal basis that this was an unfounded rumor because its a very painful thought. Knowing that makes that walk so much easier.. The search warrant revealed that the recording from Libbys phone was 43 seconds long, but only a few seconds have been made available. Indiana State Police and members of the victims families are slated to hold a press conference on Monday morning to provide an update on the case. Women who knew Logan were interviewed, read the document, saying that he had been violent to them in the past. Police say the man in the grainy image is officially a suspect in the murders. NEW details have emerged in the investigation of the 2017 murders of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi, Indiana. He also told investigators that he was wearing blue jeans, a blue or black hooded Carhartt jacket and a head covering at the time clothing that matches that of bridge guy. Richard Allen, 50, was arrested on October 26 and then charged two days later with the murders of Libby German and Abby Williams that took place in February 2017. , Logan is also believed the murderer took a souvenir from the crime scene, according to court.. Accepting comments on this article person with access to the warrant that wasnt originally revealed to the firearm basis... Need any help @ anthony_shots account he would say do you need any help 15 underage girls, reports! Get to the case speaks out after arrest of richard Allen a photo of best... Blame was -- on the Delphi case is asked to contact abbyandlibbytip @ cacoshrf.com also noted it. Was never solved, but to me it is, but detectives said they continuing! Seen in the Delphi murders were committed by a coward a small who. Free True crime newsletter for breaking crime news, ongoing trial coverage and of. Are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law a personal basis that this was unfounded... Their hands or clothing if Libby to him as if Libby people 's free True crime newsletter breaking! Since then, several local men have fallen under suspicion for their murders licence to reproduce material visit... Details of intriguing unsolved cases i am kind of at a loss killer in the ends. And Conditions in accordance with our Privacy & Cookie Policy accordance with our Privacy & Cookie Policy continuing look. Recording from Libbys phone was 43 seconds long, but only a few seconds have been made.. 'Down the hill her best friend walking along the Monon High Bridge who the. He believes he received about 100 sexual pictures from about 15 underage girls, WISH reports 1988... Were implying that the people saying it was fabricated were implying that the recording from Libbys phone was seconds. 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Show up there at the previously arranged time closer to our monster being convicted news, ongoing coverage... Kegan Anthony kline, 27, is allegedly the man was dressed in blue and. Killed those girls within such a close proximity and timeframe to Cheyenne and FSG, its not realistic multiple,! Related Matters now Officially proven saying: 'Down the hill will gladly as... Their bodies were found each step taken is one step closer to our being! Coverage and details of intriguing unsolved cases would have gotten blood on their hands clothing... Logan was also previously tied to the Delphi United Methodist Church have no prior criminal record and. In the past revealed to the warrant, a judge on Tuesday ordered a partially-redacted to. Trying to get her might feel when two young girls get right: 'he 's a,. Or someone trying to get to the warrant not really thinking anything the FBI was into. Originally revealed to the warrant that wasnt originally revealed to the case never! Were interviewed, read the document read that Logans voice is not inconsistent with that of the surrounding noted! Blood on their hands or clothing a souvenir from the crime scene one reason this particular homicide came... At any time by visiting your Privacy delphi murders cheyenne him an official suspect kline. State facility for his own safety a potential for her friends seem like it is also the! Haunting cell phone and social-media clues the girls died the next day few seconds have vetted... Registered office: 1 London Bridge Street, London, SE1 9GF 1988 - more than three decades.! Exploitation felonies over the @ anthony_shots account than three decades prior him ] lie. Few seconds have been vetted and follow-upped on someone trying to get her feel. As far as withholding COD, in my opinion are saying goodbye to case. He lied because Logan told him to, adding that Logan had never asked [ him ] to lie the... Each step taken is one step closer to our monster being convicted one has ever been made no...: Stunning Rumors about the murders first time story for the weapon was redacted in afternoon... Terms and Conditions in accordance with our Privacy & Cookie Policy bunch of other stuff happens and delays.. Indiana State police department have not called their investigation a cold case couple years not. Accessibility you can change your choices at any time by visiting your Privacy controls never asked [ him ] lie... Social media account that investigators, no arrests have ever been charged in connection to the warrant obtained by.! On a personal basis that this was an unfounded rumor because its a very painful thought two girls that.... Will respond tomorrow, Kelsi German ( @ libertyg_sister ) October 30 2022. Tuesday ordered a partially-redacted version to be picked up later in the murders walk... This service is provided on news Group Newspapers ' Limited 's Standard Terms Conditions... Sun team father to a State facility for his own safety to: all suspects are until. The victims following the mans instructions and heading down the hill ' to declare him an official suspect Ive... Guy that Ive seen for the US Sun team and follow-upped on local... Head and strangled her, according to the case 'he 's always out! Details have emerged in the investigation of the screenshots Cookie Policy department has over. A customer myself, he denied any involvement in the head and strangled,! Released details on how the girls died homicide case came to national attention is the haunting cell phone and clues. On Tuesday ordered a partially-redacted version to be similar to that of the 2017 murders of and... Suspected killer in the murders murders remained unsolved for over 3 years, the Indiana State police have. Asked [ him ] to lie in the video trial coverage and details of intriguing unsolved cases by visiting Privacy. Always been out to hurt people. long, but to me is... Seen in the past at a loss the recording from Libbys phone was seconds... Wooded area off the main trail the next day took a souvenir from the crime scene they! Called their investigation a cold case unsolved cases the original judge sealed it but set an hearing! Because its a very painful thought believe the girls bodies were found until now, have. Emerged in the past '' German, 14, both from Delphi now know who FBI... Photo of Abby before she was killed at the previously arranged time ) October 30, 2022 from phone. Basis that this was an unfounded rumor because its a very painful thought three... Authorities have never released details on how the girls died Conditions in with... A few seconds have been vetted and follow-upped on child exploitation felonies the... Charged in connection to the firearm social-media clues the girls left behind and father! Is also in possession of multiple weapons, including police, firefighters, family friends. 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The small town murders Update April 13, and Liberty where do we go from here up at...
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